School of Muscle Interview

Sean: Welcome to the interview, Jason. Thanks for letting us pick your brain!

Jason: Thank you, Sean, it’s my pleasure.

Sean: I know you have a solid list of credentials to back up your training theories. Would you mind sharing them and telling us more about yourself?

Jason: Sure. I first got into training during middle school when my cousin was dating a pro wrestler. He was huge and one of the coolest dudes I knew. I looked up to him and he became like a big brother to me. He really got me into it. Over the next few years it grew to an obsession and eventually I decided that it was what I wanted to do with my life.

I got my first of many certifications when I was 19 and still in college. From there I started working in the college weight room and interning wherever I could during the summers. Due to a serious illness I had to take a semester off and during that time I studied and learned as much as I could and started training people on my own for the very first time a few months later. Business took off rather quickly and I decided to transfer back home and open up my own training facility while I was finishing up school.

Along the way I continued to go to as many seminars as possible and read as much as I could. I spent many summers interning with some of the best coaches and trainers in the business. I traveled all around the country to learn from all of the top experts and spent close to thirty grand a year on continuing education, every single year… and believe me, I could barely afford it, but I desperately wanted to be the best.

Since the day I first opened up my training facility I have trained over 500 clients including numerous NCAA and professional athletes.

As my training business and reputation continued to grow I started branching out to writing and was eventually asked by Dave Tate to be one of only five strength and conditioning coaches in the country to be part of the Elite Fitness Systems Q&A Staff. That was a huge honor at the time, as I was being asked to be on a team that consisted of three of the best NFL & NCAA strength coaches and one of the top private coaches in the country.

Aside from the top training websites I have also written for Maximum Fitness, Men’s Health, Muscle & Fitness Hers, Today’s Man, MMA Sports Mag, and am the head fitness advisor and Hard Gainer columnist at Men’s Fitness. I have self published three books and just finished up writing a new book for Penguin Publishing which will be out in the spring.

I also do a lot of consulting with high school, college and professional teams and regularly speak at seminars.

Sean: Now, back in the day you were a skinny guy yourself. Was it a smooth transition from skinny to muscular, or were there stumbling blocks along the way? How much trial and error did you have to endure before you found the “right” formula?

Jason: It definitely was not a smooth transition from skinny to muscular. I can’t even begin to tell you how many different training theories, methods, techniques and training systems I tried. I wasted a lot of years doing stuff that didn’t work. There were many times I got so frustrated that I almost gave up.

When I first started it was all high volume, two hour workouts, six days per week. Like so many others, I had to pay “The Weider Tax.” I was basically doing whatever I read in the Muscle & Fitness and Flex. I followed whoever was popular at the time; Lee Haney, Shawn Ray, Lee Labrada or anyone else. I took the useless supplements of the day like gamma oryzanol and chromium picolinate and got nowhere. I continued to battle through those ridiculous workouts all through high school and graduated at six feet and a massive 147 pounds.

It wasn’t until I started to expand my reading base beyond the magazines during my freshman year of college that I really started to learn a little bit more about training. Eventually I stumbled upon the writings of John McCallum and Randall J. Strossen and learned about how the old timers trained. When I started to employ those methods and go back to basics I finally started to grow.

Unfortunately, I took a detour and got away from those methods for a while but was eventually reawakened when I first read Heavy Duty by Mike Mentzer. Again, I started to make progress for the first time in a few months. But like almost anyone who tried Heavy Duty could tell you, the gains came to an end.

My next experiment was with high frequency Bulgarian training methods. This style of training led to great gains but eventually I got sidetracked again but “the next best thing.” I was back to high volume workouts and started experimenting with some really insane methods that left me injured and weak.

Finally I found powerlifting and began to read as much as I could about the subject. I read about all of the old strength athletes form Paul Anderson to Bill Kazmaier and eventually found Louie Simmons and Westside Barbell Club. It finally clicked in my head that getting stronger and lifting heavier and heavier weights was one of the most important, yet so often overlooked, factors in building muscle. When I made this my main focus I began to grow faster than I had in years.

But then I discovered that as important as strength is, it’s only one piece of the puzzle. Finally, after many years of research and experimentation I was able to put it all together and combine all of what I had learned and optimally manipulate training volume, load, rest and a wide variety of other factors to create the ultimate training program.

Sean: Speaking of “skinny guys”, just how big of a role do genetics play in the muscle-building process? Are some people doomed from the word go, or is this nothing but a lame excuse?

Jason: Genetics definitely play a role in how big you can eventually get. Some guys can get absolutely jacked by eating three meals per day and doing a few sets of pushups and chin ups. These guys can also do workouts that would overtrain most of us into the ground and grow from them. This doesn’t mean you should compare yourself to them or do what they do. Some people succeed in spite of what they do. Great genetics let you get away with subpar training and a less than optimal diet.

But the fact of the matter is that these guys are few and far between. Most of us don’t have that luxury and will have to do everything right to gain serious amounts of muscle. This fact is not to be used as an excuse for your failures and shortcomings, however. Everyone, and I mean everyone, can gain at least fifty pounds of muscle from the time they first start weight training. It may take some longer than others, but it can be done, every time. If you train and eat right there are no excuses. Sure you may never look like Flex Wheeler or Ronnie Coleman but you can make incredible improvements. The “hard gainer” excuse is nothing but a lame cop out, in my eyes. I have terrible muscle building genetics and have trained several guys who were in the same boat. We all gained a minimum of fifty pounds of muscle with some guys gaining close to a hundred. My advice to everyone is to ignore this kind of talk and forget about your genetics entirely. It’s corny and clichéd but if you believe it, you can achieve it.

Sean: If you can summarize it, please share with us your underlying philosophy for building maximum muscle size in minimum time.

Jason: First of all, you have to stick to the big, basic, compound exercises. Squats, deadlifts, presses, rows and chin ups should be the main exercises in your program.

Next, you need to keep your workouts fairly short; 30-45 minutes is usually optimal. Results in anything you do are always better when motivation and focus are high. Keeping your workouts short ensures that both motivation and focus remain high and thus that your results are maximal. It also ensures that your cortisol (the stress hormone which eats muscle tissue) levels remain in check. When you train longer than 45 minutes cortisol rises and testosterone levels drop.

Constantly strive to add weight to the bar. Many people argue that getting stronger is not the only way to get bigger and they are right. It’s not the only way, but it is the best way. Sure, you can add more sets, use intensity techniques like drop sets or supersets or even decrease your rest periods but none of these are long term approaches. If the only way you progress is by adding more sets you will be overtrained in no time. That approach only works in the short term; you can not continue to add sets forever. You can take that approach for a few weeks but after a while you must do something else, you simply can’t continue to increase your set total until you are doing 100 sets per workout; that will only cripple you. You also can only decrease your rest periods so much. Most people will never be able to rest less than sixty seconds. The body just can not recover that quickly and be ready to perform at an optimal level. Even if you are a freak and can do set after set of squats or deadlifts with only sixty seconds rest without any drop in performance, I highly doubt that you could cut that down to thirty seconds. And what would happen when you got to zero seconds? There would be nowhere else to go.

That is why the only long term approach to making progress that makes any sense is to get stronger and lift heavier weights. Some misguided individuals (weak, excuse makers) claim that you can not infinitely get stronger and they are right. But no one I have ever known has ever come close to maximizing their strength potential. That’s right, no one! You can always get stronger. If you are not bench pressing at least 315, squatting at least 405 and deadlifting at least 455 I would say that hitting a strength plateau should be the furthest concern from your mind.

Get strong, get big.

Finally, you need to be sure that you are eating enough clean food and recovering optimally. Getting significantly bigger without doing a lot of eating is nearly impossible. Eat every 2-3 hours and consume at least 18 calories per pound of bodyweight. So if you weigh 200 pounds you should be eating a minimum of 3600 calories per day as a bare minimum starting point. You will probably need more than that but I find that to be a good starting point.

And lastly, be sure to get 8-10 hours of sleep per day, stretch, ice, get massages and try to avoid stress as much as possible.

Sean: I’m going to name 3 “highly debated” muscle-building topics and I’d like to hear your stance on them:

The pump: A defining workout factor or a useless ego boost?

Jason: Some people emphatically state that getting a good pump is necessary for muscle growth. There are no studies that show this to be true, but real world evidence shows that there is something to getting a good pump. First of all, the ability to easily obtain a good pump is a sign that your body is in an anabolic state and ready to train. It shows us that the body and the cells are well hydrated and ready to grow. Some days, you go to the gym and can’t get a pump no matter what you do. Those are days that you probably shouldn’t even be training. Your body is telling you something, and that something is that you are not in an anabolic state, probably not fully recovered, and you are not ready to train.

As far as the pump having an anabolic effect, this is debatable, but most bodybuilders swear that there is something to it. When you get a good pump, you are delivering tons of nutrient-rich blood to the muscles that will greatly increase amino-acid uptake. Theoretically, this should result in a greater anabolic effect. The kind of training that stimulates a good pump causes sarcoplasmic and mitochondrial hypertrophy. This is the kind of hypertrophy which is lost very quickly when you stop training. It is completely different from myofibrillar hypertrophy, which comes from heavy training and lasts much longer. However, sarcoplasmic and mitochondrial hypertrophy is necessary if you want to be as big as humanly possible. So, while it isn’t proven by science, there is definitely something to gain from getting a good pump. Having said that, I wouldn’t make it the focus of your workout. You can get a great pump from doing 50 pushups but everyone knows that’s not going to cause much hypertrophy. Just mindlessly chasing a pump will get you nowhere but after you have done the bulk of your workout you can always finish with one or two backoff sets, drop sets or supersets to maximize your pump and thus maximize your growth potential. For example, on your chest workout you could do two heavy sets on the bench press for 5-6 reps and two heavy sets of incline dumbbell presses and then finish with one higher rep set of 10-12 on dips to maximize your pump.

Sean: Training to failure: Necessary for maximum gains or going too far?

Jason: Training to failure is not necessary for maximum gains. Weather or not you go to failure really depends on your training volume. If you do very low volume training then you could and probably should go to failure on most of your sets. If your volume is in the midrange you could probably go to failure on 70-80% of your sets. And if you do high volume training, you can’t really afford to go to failure too often or you will be at great risk of over training.

Stopping one rep short of failure or hitting “clean” failure that comes without any extra psyche or screaming or ten second reps is how most of your sets should be done most of the time. Getting extra fired up and doing those last reps with your eyeballs popping out of your head is not really necessary and can often be counterproductive.

I think you should always train as hard as you can and come pretty close to failure or even hit it most of the time, just don’t go absolutely nuts on every set of every workout you do; that’s not necessary. But never use that as an excuse to train like a pussy. You should still be training harder than just about everyone else in your gym.

Sean: Cardio: Does it need to be a regular part of a bodybuilder’s routine?

Jason: I think it does. The exceptions are if you are an extremely skinny hardgainer who has to fight for every ounce of weight you gain and stays lean no matter what he eats. In that case, you can get away with skipping cardio entirely, and probably should for your first six to twelve months of training.

Aside from that one exception I think everyone should do some kind of cardio on a regular basis. Now this doesn’t have to be mindlessly peddling away on a stationary bike or stair stepper. I know how boring that is and I personally couldn’t do it if you paid me but you should be doing something. Just lifting heavy weights for 45 minutes, three days a week is not usually enough to give you the physique you are looking for and doesn’t usually equate to being “in great shape.”

I prefer to do my cardio outside. This could be sprints, hill sprints, stadium stair runs, sled dragging, rope jumping, strongman conditioning, pickup games of football or basketball, or just a long walk or bike ride. Get creative; you don’t have to bore yourself to death on a treadmill while watching Oprah. But you should be doing at least three thirty minute “cardio” sessions each week. Not only will you look better but you will feel better and be healthier.

Sean: In the past I’ve heard you speak about “CNS fatigue”. Can you explain to our readers what that means and why it’s important?

Jason: The central nervous system controls everything. If you constantly over stress your nervous system by over training or training too hard, too often your progress will come to a halt. Extremely heavy lifting such as when you are lifting a maximal weight for one to five reps is very CNS intensive. Dynamic Effort lifting such as when you are lifting a light weight as fast as possible as you do in Olympic lifting or throwing exercises are also very CNS intensive. Training to failure and beyond is also CNS intensive. If you are an athlete, the sprinting workouts and plyos that you do can be considered CNS intensive.

All of these things need to be accounted for and taken into consideration when planning your training program. What you want to do is try to avoid doing CNS intensive methods on back to back days. This means that the day after you do a one to five rep max on one or two different exercises, you need to back off a bit and give the CNS a rest. So the following day you might just do cardio or if you lift again, you need to be sure that you do slightly higher reps and don’t go to failure on every set.  Also, if you are going to do sprints either to get lean or because you play a sport or just like doing them, you should not do them the day before or after a heavy lifting workout. They should, instead, be done as a second (or first) workout on that day; therefore you would squat heavy in the morning and then sprint at night, four to six hours later (or vice versa).

If you can keep the nervous system fresh and avoid burnout, your results will be much better in the long run.

Sean: I’ve also heard you speak about the 5x5 system. Can you give us some insight into that?

Jason: The 5x5 method is one of the oldest set and rep schemes there is. For beginners it’s great, for advanced guys, not so much. As a beginner you need to perfect your form and increase your levels of inter and intramuscular coordination. This can be done with lots of repeated efforts. It’s also good for beginners (although counterintuitive and opposite of most advice you read) to keep your reps low on the big exercises. When you do too many reps in a single set, your form will break down and your stabilizer muscles will be fried long before your prime movers. Therefore multiple sets of low reps are the best way to learn perfect technique. The 5x5 system is thus perfect for beginners.

When you get more advanced, however, the 5x5 method loses its luster. Doing five sets of five reps with the same weight is a complete waste of time for more advanced lifters. After you have been training for a few years, there is never a need to do five sets of the same exercise, especially with the same weight and for the same reps. In fact, I rarely prescribe more than two sets of the same exercise with the same weight and reps.

A better approach for advanced guys would be to work up to two heavy sets of five and then finish with a back off set. Advanced lifters could also work up to a five rep max (5RM) and then finish with one or two back off sets at 90% of their best weight. But doing five sets of five with the same weight is overkill and not necessary.

Sean: What is your stance on muscle-building supplementation? Are supplements a waste of cash or do they at least provide some benefit to dedicated trainees? If so, which products are your favorites?

Jason: Most supplements are a waste of time. I have tried them all and have had tons of guinea pigs try them as well. Not only that but I regularly talk to all of the top strength coaches and trainers in the business, many of whom are my close friends and they call concur with my findings.

Listing the garbage supplements would take all day so let’s skip straight to the ones that are actually any good. First of all, I think everyone should take Omega 3 fish oils. The benefits are endless and all the research is there to back it up. You can’t go wrong with Omega 3’s. They are, after all, “essential” fats and most of us don’t get enough of them. That can’t be good.

Secondly, it’s often hard for a lot of people to eat enough solid food each day and especially to meet their protein requirements. For this reason I have no problem with people drinking a shake or two a day if they absolutely have to. Protein shakes offer absolutely no benefit whatsoever over real food, and are in fact a worse option, but are good for convenience when you need more protein and calories in your diet.

When it comes to post workout supplementation all of the research is based on endurance athletes and much of it has been misinterpreted when trying to apply it to the weight training community. However, I still think it’s pretty safe to say that the hours immediately after training are a good time to load up on carbs and protein. If you can’t get to food or simply don’t physically feel like eating solid food immediately after training, then a post workout shake is a great idea.

As far as purely performance enhancing supplements go, I would have to put creatine at the top of the list. The research and real world evidence has proven this supplement over and over. Having said that I should tell you not to expect drug like results from it but if your training and diet are in order, the addition of creatine may give you a slight advantage. And that is really all a supplement can do is give you a slight advantage. Anything more than that and it’s a drug; plain and simple.

Start off with those supplements I just listed and you will be fine.

Sean: Let’s close this out by giving us your top 3 “little known” techniques. What are 3 tips you can give that most trainees probably don’t already know that will help to accelerate their gains?

Jason: Well, even though it sounds basic to you and I Sean, I truly think the biggest “secret” is that you have to constantly get stronger and lift heavier weights. Sadly, most people just don’t seem to realize the importance of this and either use the same weights on the same exercises, month after month and year after year or they simply switch their routines constantly but never actually get stronger. If you are deadlifting 315 for five reps right now you had better be doing significantly more than that by this time next year or you will never grow. And I don’t mean 325 for five, I mean at least 365 for five; 405 would be even better.

Stretching has helped tremendously both with my own training and with all of my clients. I hate stretching with a passion and years ago never did it. Finally I forced myself to start and the benefits have been tremendous. Not only is your recovery better when you stretch but you get injured less. Most people have chronically tight hamstrings and hip flexors from sitting at a desk job all day or a variety of other factors. This puts you at great risk for injury when doing any kind of squatting or deadlifting. Not only that, but when you are that tight you can’t even get into the proper positions and perform the exercises properly.

There is also the possible benefit of increased muscle growth through fascial stretching. While this subject is highly debated, I personally believe it to absolutely be beneficial for extremely tight muscle groups. I have seen people, myself included, start a very intense stretching regimen and add size to stubborn and extremely tight bodyparts like hamstrings and calves. The calves really seem to respond well to this actually and for this reason I always recommend doing calf raises with a significant pause in the bottom position.

To employ this method, I recommend that after training you intensely stretch the muscles you worked for 30-60 seconds. John Parillo was a big proponent of this back in the 80’s and all his protégés including one of my best friends, who trained with him at time, swore by it. For example, after working your lats, you should hang from a chin up bar for a minute while really sinking down and letting your lats stretch fully. You have to be careful when doing this for the chest, shoulders and biceps, but most other muscle groups lend themselves well to this technique.

To further reap the benefits of stretching, you should also do some lighter stretching on off days after your cardio workout.

Finally, the mental aspect of successful training can never be overlooked. People will always get better results out of anything they do in life if they actually enjoy doing it. You have to follow certain time tested guidelines and principles in your training but you also have to be sure you enjoy what you are doing. Some people like full body training, some like upper/lower splits and others prefer to stick with bodypart splits. They are all ok in my book. Sure they are different and may have different affects but they all work provided you do them correctly. I personally like to mix it up and use all three splits while others adamantly stick to one approach. If you only like doing bodypart splits and doing so is what makes you happy, then chances are you will more successful doing that than any other form of training split. If someone told me I could be guaranteed to gain 30 pounds of muscle by doing nothing but isolation exercises for 50 reps at every workout I would have to decline just because I would despise it so much. If you hate doing something you will never be successful. So find the most effective training method or split that makes you happiest and that you enjoy the most and have it.

Lastly, and I know this is four but it kind of ties into number three, is that you have to believe in what you are doing. Too many people constantly question what they do. They start a new program by Billy Biceps one week and then read something by Louie Lats the next week and start to question the program they are on. They doubt what they are doing and then finally decide to switch over to another program that they read about that is supposedly even better. When you do this, and never truly believe in what you do, you will never be successful in life. You have to go to the gym, train hard and know that what you are doing will bring about great results. Confidence breeds success.

Sean: Thanks for your time, Jason!

Jason: Thank you, Sean. Talk to you soon.